Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists claim to support transwomen but oppose allowing us to live as women

TERFs or Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists are women who oppose allowing transwomen to use the women's public bathroom or being allowed into women's shelters or changerooms.

I had never encountered a TERF until I came across Sastra in a Friendly Atheist thread.  Sastra was covertly aggressive and reluctant to admit all her positions such as  transwomen in public bathrooms but I eventually got it out of her.  She disingenuously claimed to support transwomen like me but opposes allowing us to do the things that make it possible for us to live as women.  I had a long and interesting conversation with Sastra.  Did I change her mind?  I think a little bit.

I believe I got the better of Sastra on this exchange although she may have checked out before reading my last comment which made points that would have been useful to bring up earlier.  Please have a look. 

Anri  Sastra • 2 years ago: Not having experienced being trans, how do you know your body is what makes you recognize being female?

Sastra  Anri • 2 years ago: I look down — and there I am!

If my body was male and my mind the same as it is now, I would be male.

Do you have an answer for the unanswered question above?

Anri  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: "If my body was male and my mind the same as it is now, I would be male."

If you say so, I have no reason to doubt you. My (possibly flawed) understanding is that a gender-fluid mind is a rarity, so I guess you're just not like most folks, which is fine, of course.

As I'm cis, I can't say why any transwoman might feel what gender they are. Or that there is a single answer, or a set of answers that apply to transwomen in general. So I can't answer your question.

I understand the question you're asking, and that you're not getting an answer to it, but I still don't know why you want an answer. Or how you'd judge an answer to be good or bad. Or why your judgment of that answer would be relevant.

Sastra  Anri • 2 years ago: Okay. As I said above, it seemed a natural question to ask in context, and I guess my motivation was curiosity. I’m not particularly concerned about getting an answer.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago: "I’m not particularly concerned about getting an answer."

And yet you go on and on and on about this topic. Perhaps it is that you're not particularly concerned about an answer because what really interests you is promoting the non-acceptance of trans people.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: Okay, I had to look back through this thread, to try to figure out who said what, when. It’s kind of messy. In this particular discussion, Foxglove brought up the trans issue, I responded, then addressed a complaint about defining trans with biology to ask how they’d define it without it. It was a throwaway question at the end, Foxglove was done, so I considered it done, I dropped it.

Then Anri came in, asked questions about the question. Now you.

I think it’s an interesting question, and I’d be interested in hearing an answer, sure — but I’m not following anyone around bringing it up, or drawing conclusions one way or the other depending on whether anyone here answers it or not. They’ve probably better things to do. That’s what I meant when I said I wasn’t particularly concerned about getting an answer. It wasn’t the topic of the post, nor even the topic of my original comment re gay rights.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago: " I said I wasn’t particularly concerned about getting an answer"

Yes, I could see that. You're here primarily to promote the non acceptance of trans women as women. I gather you oppose letting trans women in women's shelters. What about public bathrooms, do you want to force me to use the men's room?

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: If that’s my primary goal, I’m really going about it all wrong.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago: No, you're going about it exactly right for someone who's trying to be covertly aggressive.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago: "What characteristics of the mind make you recognize you’re a woman?"

I see myself as a woman and I identify with women, not men.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: How do women differ from men, psychologically?

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago

Generally speaking, less violent, more social. Of course there are men and women who don't fit stereotypical gender roles.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: So you’re saying you see yourself as a woman, and identify with women, because you’re not very violent, and you’re sociable?

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago

We could talk about this all day, but for our purposes that's good enough.

Are you familiar with the bell curve of a normally distributed population? You are arguing that the bulk of people at the centre of the curve don't matter in defining male and female, you are falsely asserting its the outliers, masculine women and feminine men who matter most in defining what it is to have a male or female psychology. That's just wrong.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: No. I’m saying that a short man is a short man, and a tall woman is a tall woman, even though, on average, men are taller than women.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago: No, you are consistently claiming we can't make an valid generalizations about the pyschology of men or women, which is absurd.

I can tell when someone is not engaging in an honest give and take with me by whether or not they answer my questions. You haven't answered my question, do you oppose letting me use the womens' bathroom in public?

What is it to you if I live as a woman and society treats me as a women? Who does that hurt?

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, the flu has been kicking my ass.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: We can only make valid generalizations about what’s considered “masculine” (associated with men) and “feminine”(associated with women) because our culture is sexist and misogynistic. Otherwise, children would feel free to develop and pursue a wide range of interests and abilities without concern over being “like a girl” or “like a boy.” Stereotypes are harmful.

If someone believes they’re a woman because they’re gentle and sociable, they’re reinforcing gender stereotypes. There’s nothing wrong with someone of either sex being gentle or fierce, sociable or private, and we ought to try to break those mental boxes.

I didn’t take up the other issues because I thought we had enough to discuss as it is, and I prefer to deal with one topic at a time — particularly if it’s more basic and establishes ground for details. But, to answer your questions:

— Women have the right to ‘safe spaces’ such as bathrooms (i e “no.”)

— I’m a feminist. I have no problem with men living as women

until there’s a conflict with women’s rights, because eliminating

those rights hurts women.

(Sorry you’ve had the flu. I had a brief bout, and know a lot of people who had it worse. It sucks. Take care of yourself.)

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: "I didn’t take up the other issues because I thought we had enough to discuss as it is, and I prefer to deal with one topic at a time"

That's one of the most disingenuous pieces of bs I've read in years. So, tell me what order are you dealing with what?

"— Women have the right to ‘safe spaces’ such as bathrooms (i e “no.”)"

Your answer is ambiguous, do you mean trans women do or do not have the right to use public women's bathrooms?

I'll respond to the rest when I get that answer.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: Trans women do not have the right to use public women’s bathrooms.

Priya Lynn Sastra • 2 years ago "We can only make valid generalizations about what’s considered “masculine” (associated with men)(associated with women because our culture is sexist and misogynistic"

What evidence do you have to support that claim? Because I think its b.s. Earlier someone posted a physical definition of woman as a person who has a much different portion of the brain than men, same with trans women. You said "I don't accept that, a lot people would disagree, I don't consider that enough evidence, etc." How can you reject that and then claim this with no evidence?

"If someone believes they’re a woman because they’re gentle and sociable, they’re reinforcing gender stereotypes.

What evidence do you have to support your assertion that being gentle and sociable aren't more innate to women in general than men? The vast majority of societies have these gender stereotypes.

"Trans women do not have the right to use public women’s bathrooms.

— [biological]Women have the right to ‘safe spaces’ such as bathrooms

— I’m a feminist. I have no problem with men living as women until there’s a conflict with women’s rights, because eliminating those rights hurts women."

What about us trans women, do we have the same right to 'safe spaces' ? Or are safe spaces only for biological women?

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: You’re denying the impact of sexism on male and female socialization? And making MRA arguments. We are getting into some major b.s.

Let’s go this way, then. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that “feminine” attributes are indeed biologically based, and women by nature are soft, yielding, and sociable. There are still problems with concluding that males who are soft, yielding, and sociable are therefore women.

1.) You would have to make the argument that men can’t be soft, yielding, and sociable without probably being women.

2.) You would thus be arguing in favor of strict gender roles.

3.) You would be also ignoring substantial biological and physical differences.

4.) Even if you throw out the impact of sexist conditioning in m/f character development, you’d still have to deal with male privilege and sex discrimination against women, which would impact or fail to impact even feminine men.

As for safe spaces for trans people, that’s a fine idea. Your own. Or, of course, work to change men’s acceptance of gnc males.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: "You’re denying the impact of sexism on male and female socialization?"

Absolutely not. Men have been horribly abusive to women and that is because of their innate tendency to be more violent. I personally believe we need to have extensive socialization training for men to make the very needed improvements to their general behavior. Because we are trying to mold them against their nature, it will take a great deal of effort, lots of study on getting along in school, and so on. And I desperately want that to happen.

"And making MRA arguments."

Its a MRA argument that transwomen aren't real women and shouldn't be allowed to use public women's bathrooms.

"Let’s go this way, then. Let’s assume for the sake of argument that “feminine” attributes are indeed biologically based, and women by nature are soft, yielding, and sociable. There are still problems with concluding that males who are soft, yielding, and sociable are therefore women."

Precious few problems have been encountered with transwomen using women's bathrooms. You're trying to force me to risk my safety and life as a solution to a problem that is virtually non-existant. You wouldn't do that if you were in my shoes, why should I?

"1.) You would have to make the argument that men can’t be soft, yielding, and sociable without probably being women."

Absolutely not. I know men who are soft, yielding and sociable who in no way identify with women. But they're the minority. My husband is such a man and I couldn't be more in love - who is it hurting for me to use the women's bathroom in public?

"2.) You would thus be arguing in favor of strict gender roles."

Absolutely not. I am in favour of people living what ever gender role and expression makes them happiest. I am sure society would be the better for that and I want to increase people's ability to do that. Again, I ask you to imagine using the men's bathroom in public for a few months. Would you be willing to take that chance to make a better world? I'm sure not.

In society we need to balance individual rights. What you advocate puts severe burden on my life and provides you with nothing in return. That's a poor balancing of rights and keeps us from having a better world.

"3.) You would be also ignoring substantial biological and physical differences."

Nope, as I explained above.

"4.) Even if you throw out the impact of sexist conditioning in m/f character development, you’d still have to deal with male privilege and sex discrimination against women, which would impact or fail to impact even feminine men."

Ummm...okay?

"As for safe spaces for trans people, that's a fine idea.  Your own.  Or, of course, work to change men's acceptance of gnc males."

I gotchya, biological women matter, trans women don't.  At least not to you.

There's no practical alternative to women's public bathrooms for transwomen.  Because of people like you, now many less feminine looking biologiczl women are being harrassed when using the women's public bathroom.  You're making more problems for biological women than you are solving.  You're demanding a gigantic imposition on me when I make none on you.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: Question: if you agreed that transwomen are men who identify as women, as opposed to a particular type of woman, would you still argue that they should be allowed in women’s restrooms, changing rooms, shelters, sports, etc.?

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: I'm mostly concerned about public bathrooms. You are trying to make it very difficult for us to live as women and trying to prevent society from treating us as women. I don't care how you define transwomen, it is the best balance of individual rights to allow transwomen at the very least to use public bathrooms.

What do you expect us to do? Not live how we want even though it's killing us psychologically? "Go pee in the bushes" like the black star of Clueless said?

I asked you if transwomen have the same right as biological women to "safe spaces" and you dismissively said "You're entitled to your own safe spaces". Which is total bullshit - how could we possibly have a safe public bathroom if we can't use the women's bathroom? Do you want society to build a third bathroom for transwomen every where there's a public bathroom? That's not logisttically possible and even if it were, anyone going into the trans bathroom is then identified as a target for violence so that doesn't create a safe space. No, when you say we are entitled to "your OWN safe spaces", what you are really saying is "You are NOT entitled to a safe space and I couldn't give a flying fuck what happens to you or other transwomen".

You lie on this blog again and again, falsely claiming you are supportive of transwomen, lying to my face and telling me you are happy to let me live as a woman and for society to treat me as a woman and then you want to deny me the ability to use a public bathroom which prevents me from doing those things. You are anti-trans and worse than that, you try to hide it and pretend you're not.

Part of your excuse for your abuse of us transwomen is "If you don't like it, go out and change society and make men less violent". Another belief that totally ignores reality, we are a tiny, tiny percentage of the population, we cannot have any significant impact on half the population, but the other half of the population(women) has the numbers to have an impact but no, you're "Its entirely up to you to change it if you don't like it", knowing (or should know) that that is an impossible challenge. You want us rare transwomen to be the sole soldiers in trying to feminize men, to get assaulted and murdered using the men's bathroom which given our numbers will have no effect. You are totally unreasonable.

The more I've thought about what you wrote, the more angry I am. You defined feminism as putting the needs of women ahead of the needs of men. That's just as sexist and bigoted as MRA men putting the needs of men before the needs of women. To have the best society we can, we have to base it on equality, society's highest priority has to be maximizing the happiness for all in an equal and fair way. As long as you are only concerned about the needs of biological women, you've decided to be my enemy and the enemy of all transwomen.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: In order to be fair and equal, we need to consider the entire picture.

1.) if transwomen use women’s bathrooms, how do we keep men out? How do we check who is a transwoman and who isn’t?

2.) if transwomen are safer in women’s bathrooms, are effeminate gay men safer in women’s bathrooms, also? What about weak or bullied men? Is it fair to let in one group, and not the others?

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: The "slippery slope" argument is a logical fallacy.

Transwomen like me have been quietly using the women's public bathrooms with no incidents for decades.

Now because of people like you, even biological women are being harrassed in women's bathrooms because they don't appear feminine enough for people like you.

You're creating problems where none existed. You're making the world a worse place. This whole idea of yours of policing the women's public bathroom to see who is woman enough to use it is authoritarianism.

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: Unless the women’s bathroom becomes unisex, it’s automatically “policed.”

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: Bullshit.

Do you want to have me arrested if I use the women's bathroom in public?

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago: If the woman’s bathroom is not unisex, then how do we decide who isn’t allowed, and how are they kept out?

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: How about you just leave things as they have been working for decades and let transwomen use the women's bathroom without incident?

Do you want to have me arrested if I use the women's bathroom in public?

Sastra  Priya Lynn • 2 years ago" The argument, I think, is that things have changed from the days when the occasional trans sexual quietly used the Ladies’ Room.

I think our discussion is running down. You don’t want to answer my questions, and I’m focusing on them instead of on yours. In my opinion, the entire Bathroom Issue is minor. If it was indeed as easy as you say — just let the transwomen you consider legitimate transwomen use the women’s bathroom and have done with it — then I’d be fine with it. No problem. Especially on an individual level; I’d personally be comfortable with you, personally, if this forum were a coffee shop and we both got up from the discussion to get rid of some of the coffee.

But what you see as slippery slope, or distraction, or catastrophizing, or what have you, a lot of feminists see as the real problem. There’s a larger context, and unintended consequences.

I’ll let you have the last word, if you want.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: "The argument, I think, is that things have changed from the days when the occasional transsexual quietly used the ladies room".

That's nonsense. We are a tiny fraction of a percent of the population, it is still a matter of transsexuals like me quietly using the ladies room. The only reason anyone talks about it is bigots like you.

"In my opinion, the entire Bathroom Issue is minor"

That is a stunning statement of indifference to lives of transwomen like me. This has a gigantic impact on my life and to you, that's minor, trivial, who gives a fuck. All I can say is thank you very much. But your claim of minor interest in the bathroom issue is contradicted by the great energy you put into opposing letting transwomen use the women's bathroom. So, perhaps it is not so much indifference to transwomen as out of malice. I really can't see it any other way.

You keep asking me how to keep men out, but I'm not advocating for letting men, queer, effeminate, (or not) being allowed to use use the women's bathroom, so your question's don't apply. Whether or not you want transwomen like me arrested for using the women's room keep is at the heart of this issue so you need to be forthcoming about your plans for me.

I want a better world, but we don't get that by placing women or men in a superior position to the other. We don't get a better world by having crass indifference to the plight of some of the most societally abused people on the planet.

We get a better world by all of us making our highest social priority maximizing the happiness for all in an equal and fair way. You fall greatly short of that.

Priya Lynn  Sastra • 2 years ago • edited: You're trying to force transmen like this to use the women's bathroom, are you sure this is what you want?

I posted a picture of Buck Angel